Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to the Biorasi Few and Far between podcast. I'm your host, Melissa Alassi. On today's show, we're following the journey of a biotech company as it grows from early stage clinical development toward commercialization.
Our guest is Jason Tardio, President and chief operating Officer at Immunic Therapeutics.
Jason and his team are navigating a pivotal stage of growth as Immunic advances novel treatments for multiple sclerosis.
Beyond our discussion on Immunic's evolution as a company, we'll also dive into the key differences between biotech and big Pharma, fostering autonomy and accountability across your team and why great leaders listen as much as they speak.
Also, be sure to stick around for our lightning round questions.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: Jason welcome to the Few and Far between podcast.
[00:00:59] Speaker C: Melissa, thank you for having me.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Happy to have you here. I'm so excited to explore your journey.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: I am an operator.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: The operational journey in leadership is an interesting one. And a lot of the people I talk to don't have the same path that you do. So this is a really exciting place to start today. You didn't start as a scientist. You started on the commercial side. So. So I'm really excited to hear about the experiences that shaped the executive that you've become.
[00:01:26] Speaker C: Well, I think what I would say, Melissa, is there is no one path. I mean, the path that I ended up taking was a path largely it began on the commercial side of the business and eventually evolved into more the general management side of things. But I started in the biopharma space 26 years ago as a primary care sales representative, which.
Which I would not have had it any other way. Starting, I joke and say, started almost as a low man on the totem pole, but as that low man on the totem pole. My job was to be in front of customers every day. My job is to be in front of prescribing clinicians day in and day out, week in and week out, having conversations, educating, influencing, and most importantly, ensuring that when the right patient flows, the products that I was promoting came in front of that clinician that they were thinking about those products.
And in doing so, you really learn this business from the ground up. You learn it directly from the stakeholders that you're trying to influence, regardless of the disease state, regardless of where the company is. And so that was a very, very valuable time for me. And then, of course, over the course of my career, I've had the opportunity and been fortunate just to take on roles of increasing responsibility largely on the Commercial side, and then eventually, as I've mentioned, more into general management. But that starting point as a sales representative, being on the field, as we say, pounding the pavement, knocking on doors, meeting with customers, served as just an amazing foundation for where I am today in my career.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: Wow, that's exciting to me too.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: I see parallels to that in clinical trials, those of us who worked at site sites alongside principal investigators and understand the patient journey among all of this. It's very much a parallel. Was there a point at which you first thought I could eventually run a company? Was there a moment in that journey that you can recall?
[00:03:26] Speaker C: Yeah, probably. If I reflect back on my career, I had the opportunity when I was working at Biogen to go down to Latin America, to South America, and be the general manager of four different countries for them in the Southern cone of South America. And that job had me really, it was a change management job. It was a turnaround, a bit of a tear down and a rebuild of the existing business.
And not only did I have to understand where the challenges were in the existing business, lay forth a blueprint to address those challenges, but it also had to do with people change. Identifying people that had the right behaviors or skill sets for what we were looking for, and in some instances even making changes, certainly on the people side of things as well. And eventually I ran the P and L for that business. And so when you think about that responsibility and that general role, it really is a microcosm for being a CEO. You were in fact, in the local markets, you're viewed as, quote, unquote, CEO of the business. And so you have the totality of the company reporting into you across the GNA functions, across the medical functions, of course, across the commercial functions. And your job is to prioritize the business, to set very clear vision for the business. It's to set clear goals and objectives on an annual basis. It's again, as I've mentioned, to own the operating plan and the P and L and to drive for success. And so that experience in South America was probably the first time that I said, wow, I love doing this. I love building companies, I love leading companies, I love inspiring people. And that was probably the impetus for saying, yeah, I think I can do this on a larger scale.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Sure. Well, and it is a people business. And ultimately understanding the nuance of leadership as it relates to talent and talent strategy among the science, among the, the deal making, that's such a critical component and you're experiencing it firsthand there.
I want to move into your current strategy. IMMUNOTHERAPEUTICS is clearly a clinical stage biotech, but you're evolving from R and D to a fully integrated company. That's an incredible inflection point. And you're seeking to commercialize in the near term. A lot of biotech companies, of course, know how to get to phase two, but to become launch ready is an entirely bigger pursuit. And I'd love to understand from your perspective what is different about this stage that you're in now.
[00:06:00] Speaker C: We're trying to build an R D focused company versus trying to build a fully integrated pharmaceutical biotech company with commercial assets is two completely different endeavors.
And if you think about the stages of development, even a company that's just focusing on developing medicines through a phase two proof of concept, that's very different than taking on and tackling confirmatory, oftentimes larger, large global phase 3 trials, which it could be hundreds, if not thousands of patients, and managing that is vastly different than the phase two proof of concept. And then of course, now crossing that chasm, if you will, from a Phase 3 company into a fully integrated company that hopefully, as I knock on wood here, we'll have the opportunity to commercialize and bring a medicine to people that's a completely, again, additional lift and completely different lift. And the skill sets and the type of people you need are different throughout each of these respective journeys. So as we embark upon this change here at the company, this pivot, if you will, of growth and the way I look at it, it's not so much a change in the vision, it's just the next chapter of the company. Company.
It requires a different degree of skill sets in terms of the people that we have. It requires a different focus of the company versus when you're in clinical trials. It's all about, have we enrolled the trial? Okay, where are we at with enrollment? And then once you've enrolled the trials, it's okay, where are we at with the target on kind of the readout, Are we ready to do that? Now it's about preparing for a new drug application, an N.D.A. submission with the F.D.A, which is a completely, again, different skill set endeavor. From there, it's going to be negotiating with the regulators, of course, for potential approval. And then once you have approval, it's about really bringing the product to market. How do you think about strategy? How do you think about execution?
So it's a very different.
Each chapter is different. We're entering a vastly different, but I would say exciting chapter. We have a medicine. We have a medicine, Melissa, that we're developing for multiple sclerosis that we think could be highly differentiated based upon its mechanism of action.
And there continues to be just enormous unmet need within multiple sclerosis. And so we hope that Beautiful to miss calcium can deliver some good data later this year and that we'll have an opportunity to deliver that medicine to the million or so patients that are living with multiple sclerosis, first in the United States and then of course across the world.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: Oh indeed. And we'll be watching eagerly for that readout. So your background with the big Pharma history.
I'm interested in what happens when you come from a place where you've been trained, you're in a billion dollar franchise and your resource constrained biotech environment looks and feels very different.
So here you are at this make or break moment, having worked inside very large organizations and now inside a smaller biotech. What are some of the assumptions from big Pharma that just do not survive when they make contact with that biotech reality?
[00:09:10] Speaker C: Look, I think there's pros and cons to both big pharma and small biotech and there's trade offs on both sides as well. I think the biggest change coming from big pharma to a biotech is what you've mentioned. It's just your resource constraint. Oft times, smaller biotechs either have limited capital or financing or if they are, quote, unquote, fully funded, they're fully funded through a specific catalyst. Right.
Data readout, an approval from the regulatory authorities. Right. And so in a way you're always kind of chasing that next round of financing until you can get to a point where you're self sufficient, where again, you're fully integrated, you have commercial assets, you're generating your own revenues.
So the biggest difference I think is just your resource constraints. So what that mandates is a different degree of prioritization. You really have to focus on what matters most, what is most important, how do we force rank those priorities, how do we put the limited amount of capital that we have behind those priorities so that we ensure that we're delivering on those? That's going to maximize the success of the company, but also maximize, if you're publicly traded, the shareholder value as well. So it's really, I think the biggest difference between the two is the need to prioritize. It doesn't mean at big Pharma you don't need to prioritize, but because you have a lot of money, you have a lot of people, you know, a lot of people can focus on smaller priorities versus That a biotech, you have a smaller number of people, a smaller finite limited resource cash Runway. And so it requires the whole organization to focus on maybe three or four big priorities to move the needle certainly.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: Well, I imagine too the cycle times are shorter because to the next decision point is a 6 or a 12 month journey versus a 2 or 3 year journey.
[00:11:05] Speaker C: Without a doubt. I mean as we think about smaller biotech, the way that you even structure the company, structure the goals and objectives, structure the financing off times is hinged around these catalysts which hopefully more or less are coming, you know, within a 12 month window or a 24 month window. And so you're, you're, you're focused on getting to that point, hopefully having some success which then allows you to live another day and, and continue on within your journey. And so again it requires prioritization, it requires the holistic organization really rowing towards a common goal. Whereas again at a broader company, large pharma, they have multiple assets generating multiple revenues, there's different business units, different teams focusing on different things. Whereas again in a small biotech oftimes, it's either a one or two product company with clear focus, clear goals and objectives and everyone is driving towards that.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a very different environment and quite a dynamic one too.
I want to explore a little further the commercialization journey. And particularly because of your expertise here, I think a lot of the expectation is that commercialization is really a post approval activity. And yet in your experience, how much of that really, when does it begin? Does it come earlier and how much earlier?
[00:12:29] Speaker C: Well, commercial insights and a view on the commercial environment and what you hope to bring to patients one day should start very early. In fact, it should start as early as possible in the clinical development program. Phase one, phase two, certainly before phase three. As you think about what's the differentiation of our medicine, how do we want to ensure that we have a trial design that allows us to prosecute and speak to that differentiation?
And of course, what does the competitive landscape look like? What do we hope to deliver that's going to allow us again to have a unique position in the market, et cetera. So the commercial voice in the commercial insight needs to come very, very early. In the R and D and the development programs, of course, as you get closer to a potential phase 3 data readout and then subsequent regulatory filings and then subsequent launches, the speed and acceleration for which you have to focus on commercial just becomes faster and faster and greater and greater.
But even then you're building out strategy well before you have phase three readouts, you're building out and scaling the organization well before those readouts so that you have important leadership positions in place, that there are plans in place in terms of turning the minute you have that positive data, turning the organization and rapidly scaling so that you'll be prepared. But this, this starts very early in development. As you get closer to again, phase three and pivotal readouts are already aligning on strategy and go to market plans. And then of course, the minute you have data, it all becomes around refining those plans and really executing. And then in the post, it's all about executing, executing on the plans, of course, digesting what's happening in the market. Hopefully you have an ability to pivot when things go wrong, because inevitably something will go wrong. You never get the launch perfect. The companies that succeed and the brands that succeed are those companies and brands that identify what's not going right quickly are able to pivot and adjust plans and address those needs in the market, you know, faster. So it's a constant acceleration of effort.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: It's a parallel track, essentially, because your clinical trial development plan is doing the same thing. It is being responsive to pivoting to signal and adjusting and addressing risk mitigating as you roll forward and you're bringing that commercial capability alongside so that it's ready for that smooth handoff.
[00:15:04] Speaker C: Yeah, a lot of people think clinical development is just designing a study that you can enroll quickly and then that's successful and that allows us for an approved product. But it's not. Again, the broader picture is ensuring that the total ecosystem is talking to one another again so that early on you understand what is it that we think is different about this medicine? And, and how do we ensure again that the development plan and the studies that we're designing are going to answer those questions, that we're going to allow us to have negotiations with the agencies and the regulators about including differentiation or a label and then of course, executing upon that once you get into the commercial arena.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: And it all ties back to that
[00:15:45] Speaker B: physician community and that networking that's built, as you mentioned earlier in your career, those on the ground conversations every day about what is the need and how ultimately can we develop this program to meet that.
[00:15:57] Speaker C: Well, and hopefully again, during the course of the development program, you are seeking insights from the market, you're talking to treating clinicians, you're talking to patients, what matters to patients. Right. What are some unique outcomes that we can hopefully deliver upon that matter to you as a patient? Right. And so it's a Constant dialogue again between all of the stakeholders. Right. Treating clinicians, the patients, you're trying to serve the regulators. Right. As you're evolving your analysis plan, the protocols, I mean, it's a constant discussion around, among the totality of both the internal and external ecosystem to ensure that you can get this right and most importantly, deliver a medicine to patients that have continued need.
[00:16:42] Speaker B: Indeed. Yeah. It's a noble journey, certainly.
I'm curious, as we look at your move into President and CEO, what became harder from commercial to now your current leadership accountabilities?
[00:16:56] Speaker C: Well, I think the more you go, you know, go up the ladder, you know, the decisions that you make become greater. Right. And it doesn't mean that, you know, as your commercial leader, that decisions that you have in front of you aren't important. They're certainly important. They're important around strategy, they're important about execution.
But now as you get into more executive management, it's really about the totality of the company. How are we thinking about the long term vision for the company? How are we thinking about the long term strategy of the company? How does our near term goals align with what our midterm goals need to be? And then ultimately how does that feed into a longer term vision for what we hope to build here? And so I think the biggest difference is the need to kind of step back to think broader around core corporate strategy, around corporate development, around the totality of the picture versus, you know, when you're focused just on a commercial leadership role, you're focused more on kind of a brand success, you're focused on product and market success. Of course that feeds into the bigger picture as well.
But the more general management responsibilities that you take on, it's all about how can we build a company that's sustainable in the near term, but also more importantly, continue to be differentiated over the long term.
[00:18:18] Speaker B: So I'm always curious to get those pearls of wisdom. Do you have some advice that stands out that you would give to a first time biotech executive?
[00:18:28] Speaker C: Well, I mean, I think the advice that I would give to people, I mean, it all depends on kind of where the company is in their journey. Except.
But what I have found in my career off times is, you know, when stepping into roles, whether you're coming from the outside into a company or you're getting pulled up within a respective company, the first thing we need to do is just talk to people. We need to sit down and have conversations with people internally. What's going well, what's not going well, how can we improve upon things, et cetera, how aligned are people with where the company is going and with the vision that you're trying to set as a leadership team.
But then also talking externally that may be with investors. Right. What's going well, what's resonating in terms of the story that the company's trying to tell, what's not resonating and how can we improve?
Again, we've talked a little bit about patience. I mean, patients are at the, at the center of everything that we do. I mean, if you think about our business, and this is why I love the pharma biotech space, as we get to everyday work in a business in which hopefully the fruits of our labor allow us to deliver a solution to a human being that's going to allow them to live a better life, to have a better quality of life. It may even some diseases save their life. I mean, how many people can say that they do work every day that has a direct impact on the life of a human being? And more times than that, we will never have a chance to meet these people. And so I love the business that we're in, but this requires that we're out there talking to patients that we're out there talking to again, treating clinicians.
I think when you talk to people and you truly listen, and I'll repeat that, you truly listen because it requires you to listen and digest what you're hearing, you'll quickly come to areas in which you know the company is doing well again, internally, externally, or areas in which the company may need to improve upon.
And then you build a plan to have small wins. You have, you build a plan to have a bigger vision on where you want to go.
This starts with talking to people and listening to people.
[00:20:32] Speaker B: Yeah, those are the key skills. And they don't change with our career development. They become even more important, certainly as
[00:20:39] Speaker C: you climb the proverbial ladder. Of course, that's right.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: Indeed.
[00:20:43] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: Well, when we're thinking about the success of an organization, what's been your observation of what separates those biotech companies with successfully crashing the finish line and those that just fall short of it?
[00:20:58] Speaker C: For me, it starts with people. I think you really have to build the right organization with the right people. And then what comes alongside that kind of in parallel is the culture that you've built. But it starts with the people. You have to go out and hire the best people for the roles that you're filling. And then of course, in doing so, you then have to allow them the opportunity and a long leash course Long Runway to do what they do best. I mean, my leadership principle. One of the key facets of my leadership style and principle is hiring great people, people much smarter than I am across, across the functions that they need to lead and really giving them autonomy to drive and lead the work that they're doing. I mean, as you, as you go up the ladder and you become a leader in a company, you become a, you know, President, a CEO, etc. Your job isn't to have all the answers. Your job is to know a little about a lot. I say that my knowledge base is like a mile wide and an inch deep in certain areas.
It's certainly deeper than an inch. But what do I mean by that? It means I know a lot about this business and I know the right questions to ask the right people. But I don't pretend to be an expert across every vertical in our business.
And so what I do is I will go out and hire the best people to lead each of those respective departments and verticals, et cetera. I will give them the resources and the power to build that structure and that team and that department as they see fit. I will give them a long leash to make decisions. I will of course, hold them accountable, accountable for those decisions. And I tell people, I don't like surprises. I don't like positive surprises. I don't like negative surprises. So let's keep a constant dialogue and transparency. But it starts with people, Melissa. If you go and hire the best people that have great behaviors, that are passionate about what they do, and then you give them the resources to succeed, you're going to have the core of what is a successful program.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: Indeed. Well, and I find too that all of these components build upon each other. When you have people who are respected, who are given that space and accountability to bring their best selves into an organization, and as you said earlier, that they are listened to, that the respect that they're given for their contribution, all of these strengthen, they set and strengthen organizational culture, but then also give us the ability to succeed together.
[00:23:33] Speaker C: Couldn't have said it better.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: Well, I am so excited about the next phase of our conversation, which will be our lightning round. So I have a set of questions for you that are kind of pointed and meant to elicit a quick reaction from you. I mean, you might go into a little more detail if you care to, but we're just going to kind of get a few questions right off the top.
[00:23:52] Speaker C: Let's go for it.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: Ready to go. All right. What's one leadership skill you wish you learned sooner.
[00:24:00] Speaker C: I think delegation through empowerment, you know, I'm not a micromanager, but I am a little bit of a control freak and learned over time is that again, if you hire the right people, just delegate, delegate, trust them.
And as I've gotten wiser and older in my career, again, I think I do a pretty good job of delegating. But earlier in my career, I didn't do probably quite as good of a job. So delegation, I think through empowerment, fair.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: I have a good friend who shared with me a reflection. She had that now that she's olderly, which I think is a great term, we need to normalize that term that she realized her skill for pattern recognition is quite developed. And it's that pattern recognition of watching things shift over time and being able to intervene a little earlier, I thought that was just such a neat way of thinking about it.
[00:24:53] Speaker C: I love that.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: All right, what's the next one for me? What's the best career advice you've received?
[00:24:59] Speaker C: Well, I'll answer that in two ways. I kind of answered it a little bit earlier, which is like, just hire people better and smarter than yourself. I think if you do that and then that shows you have awareness about your strengths and maybe areas of improvement.
But it also shows, I think, a degree of humility in which you're saying, look, I don't protect, tend to have all the answers I need. Great people around me, they're going to help us collectively get to that answers. So I think that's one thing. The other thing that I would give is just general career advice for people is that you have to own your own career. And what do I mean by that? Is that like, yes, in a perfect world, you have a manager that's, that's vouching for you, that is helping to enhance and build your brand. That is sitting with you and talking a little bit about your development and where you want to go and helping you put the building blocks in place to get, get there. But more times than not, you, you don't, you just don't because people are busy. And so managers will check the box and they'll meet with you and they'll do your mid year or year end. But so what I mean by that is that you have to own your own career. So self advocate for yourself. It doesn't mean you run around in a very arrogant and boisterous manner, just like, you know, telling people how great you are. No, that's, that's not what that means. That means building your network. Build your network. Internally with your company, build your network externally, talk to people, learn. I've told people all along, have 30 minute coffee chats with as many people as you can internally and externally and just say, hey, I was in a meeting with you, I'd love to learn a little bit about who you are and what you do at the company. If you do that, you'll build a network. Of course inevitably they're going to say, well Jason, tell me about yourself and tell me about what your career aspirations are.
And then of course really think about the end goal, where is it that you want to be and build that career plan yourself. What are the skills I have today? What are the skills I have to learn? What roles can I take on that will allow me to learn those skills? And sometimes that means you have to take a horizontal position in a company versus that continued vertical promotion that people are always chasing just to round out skill sets. But I think that that's what you have to own your career, build your network internally, externally, externally. Have 30 minute coffee chats with people.
I don't care who they are in the organization, people will want to meet with you and then own your career, own your development, think about where you want to go and what's that end in mind and what do I need to do to get there?
[00:27:21] Speaker B: That's fantastic advice. You know, I've noticed especially in the last year or so, the volume of events that are available to participate in in person in particular has grown and the. There's this definitely this desire to get back to face to face connection. And in the ecosystems where I spend a lot of time in Seattle and the Bay area, in Boston there's a networking event or a happy hour or a, you name it, probably almost every night of the week these days. And if you plug into those, those are immediate ways to start building your network. It's pretty phenomenal.
[00:27:55] Speaker C: Without it, what I would say, Melissa, look, our world has changed. I mean post Covid era there's no doubt that we are in a hybrid environment environment. We're going to continue to leverage technologies like we're doing right now to have conversations, etc. But what will never leave us is the human to human interaction. And that's I think maybe another good piece of advice. You know, go into the office, sit with people, meet with people, go to external networking events, have the opportunity to shake someone's hand, to sit with them, have a cup of coffee.
It's just, it's so important. We are technology, data, digital AI. This is not going away. It's going to continue to change how we work and we need to embrace that. And here at Immunic we're certainly embracing that. But you're never going to completely lose that human element. And so I think that's another bit of advice. I mean, take the time and opportunity to engage with people in person.
[00:28:49] Speaker B: Yes, indeed. Yeah, that's certainly something I'm very fond of pursuing. All right, here's a fun one. What's the most underrated role in a growing biotech?
[00:29:01] Speaker C: I mean as I think about it, it's probably the program. Program leadership, program management. So this is a role that I call them kind of the CEO of the asset. What their job is to do is to build kind of the long term project plan, the long term Gantt chart.
It's a cross functional role in which there's someone kind of at the center of this, of this ecosystem is the asset.
Alongside that asset is this program leader. And then all the different functions within the organization that contribute to a successful program sit around the table. So this individual oft times needs to, I joke and say corral the cats. Right. There's a lot of different parts in a company. This individual needs to be able to work in a cross functional environment, often without direct leadership responsibility. Right. Because many people at the table will be, will have a manager within their function that they report to. So this individual needs to be able to lead without authority and needs to be able to hold people accountable, keep the program on task, drive towards deliverables, flag risks, put mitigation plans together to identify and address those risks. I mean it is a vitally important job. So when I think about a biotech, an emerging biotech, being able to hire and find someone that is really experience that leading a program and driving that forward is an invaluable asset indeed.
[00:30:26] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: That is a very complex and dynamic role and perhaps something we need to shed more light on.
I'm generating ideas on the basis of your response.
Is there a book that you would recommend to a sort of must read for biotech leaders.
[00:30:44] Speaker C: So there's a business book that I reread it every couple years. It's an oldie but goodie I think it came out in the early 2000s and it's called Good to Great by Jim Collins. If you've read Good to Great, there's fundamental principles within that book that I try and live every day. Things like leadership, humility, being a humble leader, not a mister or miss Know it All and really approaching your job as a leader with high degrees of humility, recognizing it's an honor to really lead and manage and coach and people. I think disciplined execution, we talked a little bit about that. Setting clear priorities, but also just ensuring and mandating that you're executing with clear, laser focused discipline across those priorities that you've set. Talent first thinking and talent first. Hiring, we've talked about that. Hiring the best people and ensuring that they're in the right seats on the bus, if you will. And then just, you know, balancing short term focus with long term focus. What is the ultimate vision? Keeping an eye on that, on that prize around.
What is it that we're trying to ultimately get to these principles?
Gosh, it's 25 plus years, I think since this book's been around, but they haven't wavered. They continue to speak to me and I tried to instill them in my work day in and day out.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: Indeed, they have definitely stood the test of time and I think even more so. As you mentioned earlier with our tech enabled evolution over the last number of decades, it behooves us to be even more focused on how we interrelate and our communication skills and our ability to connect as humans through all those advances. Great. All right, last question. Lightning round.
What's one word?
What's one word your team would use to describe your leadership style?
[00:32:36] Speaker C: I think empowering.
Empowering Again, I hire great people and I really give them trust. We build relationships that are predicated on trust and more importantly, my belief in them. Right. These people want to be inspired. They want to know that their manager, their boss, really trusts, truly believes in them. And there's no better way to show that than to empower people. Give them, you know, be there to listen, be there to help, you know, carve direction. Be there to help they're struggling or challenged with something. Be a sounding block. But ultimately say, look like Melissa, I believe in you. I trust you. I know you can do this. You're going to knock this out of the park. And my job is to remove obstacles to get you what you need. But go. I high hired you because I really believe that you are the best person to do this. I think if you empower people, they're going to flourish. They're going to flourish indeed.
[00:33:32] Speaker B: Well, and empowerment feels really lovely. If I ever need a pep talk, I might give you a ring just for that.
[00:33:36] Speaker A: Please do.
[00:33:37] Speaker B: I repeat. Although I can also revisit the pod. So thank you. This has been a really inspirational conversation. I'm excited to watch the journey out of Munich and where things are Headed and certainly wish you and your empowered team all of the success. It's been a wonderful conversation today. Thank you so much.
[00:33:54] Speaker C: I really enjoyed it. Melissa. Thank you.
[00:33:56] Speaker D: Hi, Melissa.
[00:33:58] Speaker A: Hello, Adam.
[00:34:00] Speaker D: Great episode. Great episode with Jason was a great episode. I'm going to, I'm going to hit you with a statistic right out of the, right out of the gate here. So over.
Over the past 20 years, only about 10% of clinical stage biotech companies successfully make the transition to becoming a sustainable commercial biopharma organization.
Based on what you and Jason were talking about, what do you think prevents most biotech companies from making that leap?
[00:34:32] Speaker A: Gosh. So this is.
If we get the answer to this. It's like being able to look in the crystal ball and have all of the variables very quickly.
I think the list is sound. Right. All of those things really matter on the journey. Science, strategy, leadership, capital, et cetera. But it's at different points in the journey that many of those characteristics take on more significance. And from Jason's perspective, what resonated with me is that each stage of a company's growth requires a different set of capabilities. So what gets you through phase 2 may not be sufficient to get you through phase 3. Certainly, as we discussed with him, the team that gets you to commercialization have a lot of specialty and a lot of expertise that you may not be relying on in R D. So, you know, science has to work, of course. Right. But I think a lot of companies underestimate how much like their leadership, their operational discipline, even their organizational evolution is required to bridge that gap. Yeah, for sure. So it's not like one big leap. It's all of those incremental transitions along the way.
You know, we're not, we're not adverse in terms of looking out for risk. That is R D, of course, but gosh, that 10% statistic is.
It's impressive in that we persevere in spite of it. So that's a neat one. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah.
[00:35:55] Speaker D: It kind of brings me to the next question about when we talk about commercialization as the ultimate goal, is that always the case and what drives that decision?
[00:36:05] Speaker A: Usually I don't, I don't think it's always the goal for the team individually. It certainly would be for an asset. The asset's journey is to get it into patients lives and have it make a difference for them. But I think for a lot of companies, the commercialization destination isn't necessarily where they're headed. They may be looking to create value through a partnership or a licensing agreement or acquisition, which, gosh, currently we're seeing an incredible, incredible amount of that activity happening across the industry. Yeah. And it's frothy, so we don't know quite how to use that as a predictive measure. But there's a number of paths for an asset to follow. So it really comes down to the strategy. The capital requirements obviously are a major component and the type of risk tolerance in organizations. So when Jason was highlighting that becoming a commercial organization is essentially becoming a different company, I think that's such an important message to he that you're not just developing a medicine anymore. Now you're building infrastructure, your capabilities for marketing and that expertise that you need there may not have existed before.
So maybe the question isn't, can we commercialize it? Should we?
Can we? Those are all parts of what drive that decision.
[00:37:21] Speaker D: Very interesting. Yeah, I was reading about it and it was nice to see that some people are, are just focused on the science and once they're done with that, they're more than willing to move that particular the results to another company or another partnership.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: Right. And they have the infrastructure and they have the engine for lifting a product into its commercial phase.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: Yeah, very cool.
[00:37:45] Speaker D: So in addition to what we were just talking about, I assume that leadership and talent remain critical factors on that decision to move to commercialization.
Jason said to hire people smarter than you.
What's your perspective on creating the right balance of autonomy and accountability when you're bringing talent into the organization?
[00:38:08] Speaker A: Oh gosh, that's, that's a critical balance. I, I love that phrase of hiring people smarter than you. I remember the first time I heard it, I was very young in my career and it was a very senior person in a large company I worked for. And I thought, wow, that level of humility is so empowering.
It broke down some of the structural says, the distance. You're higher in the structure, somehow you're smarter. But we are such a collaboration based enterprise.
So my philosophy on this is that if you're going to hire great people, great. You have to then trust them to do great work. And that's where the push pull between autonomy and micromanaging can get a bit tricky.
Some leaders get into trouble, right. They're hiring experts, but then they're managing like they're not experts.
So the best people are not gonna sign up for a shift of constant oversight. They want clarity. Let's get, get our mission.
Let's understand our outcomes and where the guardrails all. But then like, let's go. Let's. Let's get this done.
Yeah, I think autonomy, accountability, they go hand in hand. But let's give talented people the room to operate. Let's be super clear about expectations and how this successfully measured. But then everyone, you know, get going and get that micromanaging concept kind of off the table right away.
[00:39:28] Speaker D: No, but it's very interesting in what, in what CROs do. Trust is like the most vital factor ever. And of course, you want to make sure that if you're going to enable that trust, you have to start from within.
[00:39:44] Speaker A: So absolutely is the case.
And we need to invest the time to build.
It doesn't just show up as a. As a line item.
Crap.
[00:40:00] Speaker D: Hang on.
So for our final question, I definitely want to get back to one of Jason's comments.
There's no one path.
So when you and Jason were talking, you spoke about career journeys and company evolution.
And not to put you on the spot, but how does your own path ultimately lead you to Biorazi and what lessons have you taken from that experience?
[00:40:27] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Well, so his comment really resonated with me.
My career has not followed a straight line. Certainly I will share one of my favorite sayings. It's actually an old maritime proverb. As you know, I like to sail. I'm a recreational sailor here in the Pacific Northwest.
The proverb is, a smooth sea never made a skilled sailor.
The first time I saw that printed on a sign, I was like, this is speaking to my soul. And what I've learned in sailing, I can say definitely parallels to my career journey, that when you're sailing, you don't develop the skills you need necessarily in advance. Those easy days on the water don't give you as much of a learning environment than when the weather changes or tide is running against you or the plan that you set doesn't really work anymore. My career, when I look back on it, has been very much the same as that. I've had challenges, of course. There's been unexpected turns and lots of different kinds of roles, but each of
[00:41:33] Speaker B: those have stretched me.
[00:41:34] Speaker A: They've taught me something that I needed
[00:41:36] Speaker B: for the next chapter.
[00:41:37] Speaker A: I might not have known at the time when I was learning it, but I worked. I started my career working at a clinical trial site, and then I moved to the service side, and then I moved to the sponsor side in operations strategy and leadership roles. And they felt like separate experiences at the time. But now when I reflect, those were all preparing me for something bigger. So what got me here ultimately was the opportunity to bring that together. I saw a phenomenal company with a great foundation and some tremendous potential. So I think my willingness to think differently about how we serve small and mid sized biotech sponsors has been what's been appealing in this journey so far, and that's been pretty compelling. I always been drawn to organizations where I can influence at an inflection point or where there's a chance for me
[00:42:30] Speaker B: to shape what comes next.
[00:42:32] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:42:33] Speaker A: I'm excited for us here.
[00:42:34] Speaker D: I agree.
[00:42:35] Speaker C: I agree.
[00:42:35] Speaker D: It's a very.
The thrill of being able to come in and make your presence felt in a good way for both the culture and also the company is quite extraordinary. So I hope everyone has a chance to feel that.
[00:42:53] Speaker A: That's right. So for me, like, the biggest lesson I've taken from the career journey, like sailing, is that it isn't about that perfectly charted course. And as Jason said, there's no one path, but there is value in every mile, whether that is nautical or over the ground.
So, you know, the experiences might seem disconnected in the journey, but they're the ones that prepare you for what's ahead.
[00:43:17] Speaker C: Gotcha.
[00:43:18] Speaker D: Okay, so thank you, Melissa. It's always great to hear how these conversations resonate beyond the episode. So thank you very much.
[00:43:26] Speaker A: Yeah, this is always fun. Yeah. My pleasure.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: And thanks to our listeners for tuning
[00:43:30] Speaker A: in for another episode of Few and Far Between. We'll see you next time.
[00:43:34] Speaker C: Okay, bye.
