[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Welcome to part two of a special two part episode of the Few and Far between podcast. I'm your host, Chris o'.
[00:00:22] Speaker C: Brien.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: On today's episode, we continue our conversation with Mike Tolentino, MD, co founder of Aceveda Therapeutics. While part one really focused on Mike's journey and and his discovery of intraretinal therapy for neurovascular eye diseases. In this part two, we're gonna explore the importance of the mentor mentee relationship, the bad apples and silos that can destroy a biotech from the inside out, and how people who get excited about solving big problems are the powerful engines needed in today's successful companies. I hope you enjoyed part two of my conversation with Mike and discover a few best practices and some inspiration to take back to your own company or your own journey. Okay, let's start the podcast.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: Okay, Mike, welcome back to part two of our conversation. In part one, we spent a lot of time talking about the science and how you got to the scientific insights that enabled your career. One thing that I wanted to say as we now move into company building, leadership, biotech careers, all that stuff, is I don't think we've had anybody on the program who has mentioned as many other people by name during their interview as we've heard from you. In fact, I bet you mentioned twice as many people as anyone else has. You mentioned mentors, co founders, collaborators, colleagues, and I hadn't asked you to do that. That's just how you sort of think about the world. So one of the things I want to start out with is, you know, you described yourself as a young person as not having friends, and here you are with, I think, a talent for connecting with people. I certainly felt that the very first time we spoke. So, first of all, am I right? And how important is that for you and how do you do it? Let's talk a little about that.
[00:02:09] Speaker C: Well, I told you in the first part that I work on my weaknesses, so I knew that I was a terrible relator because I was so analytical that I became a performer.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:02:21] Speaker C: So what I ended up doing was I was very skilled in the violin. I was also.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: So, literally, you became a performer? Okay.
[00:02:27] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. And also I ran all the singing groups in my high school and in my middle school.
[00:02:32] Speaker A: No kidding. Okay.
[00:02:33] Speaker C: Yeah. So I was always the soloist, plus I went into dramatics drama. Before I graduated high school, I was in 51 productions. Right. This is interspersed with me doing research, by the way. Now, it did help that I did have a photographic memory and so I could memorize scripts and I could try out for something without reading the book.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Yes, that would be helpful.
[00:02:51] Speaker C: That was very, very helpful. The issue is that in drama, I worked on becoming not a shy kid. I also worked on being able to express myself and also timing my seventh grade improv professor. His name is Michael Alasso. I remember him very, very well. He made me do skits and take risks and not be afraid of screwing up and being embarrassed. All right? So as my wife always says, nothing embarrasses me because of that.
[00:03:19] Speaker A: That's great.
[00:03:19] Speaker C: And this is how I've learned to relate to people.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: I should say that might not always be great. Children don't necessarily like that in their parents. So I don't know.
[00:03:27] Speaker C: No, they don't. They don't.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: But most of the time, that's probably a superpower.
[00:03:31] Speaker C: Well, the kids know my kids. They hate it when I do things because, look, I'm not afraid. For me, it's like when I learned to ski for one reason, so that I could jump off cliffs and still survive.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: Okay?
[00:03:44] Speaker C: And that's what I do. So a lot of times, you know, I tend to like to jump off cliffs, either vocally, literal or metaphorical, literally or metaphorically. And I do that a lot, actually.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: Actually.
[00:03:54] Speaker C: And that's why I can actually conceptualize things that everybody says will not work. And I'll prove that it will work.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: So there's a really interesting lesson here, right. For people who are introverted and a disproportionate percentage of people in the sciences certainly would describe as introverts. I think what you're saying is that maybe part of this was you were lucky enough to start doing this when you were young, when your brain is a little more plastic, but still that idea of trying to step outside of your comfort zone, do something that forces you to communicate with people or connect with people. Probably good advice for lots of people, right? You.
[00:04:24] Speaker C: It is. It is because you need to communicate. If you can't communicate. I realized this when I was very young. Yes, I could ace every single test I took. But if you couldn't, like, raise your hand and answer a question in class, you'll be docked for that. And then when you're trying to convince people of your ideas, like defending a thesis or anything, even writing a journal article, you better express yourself well. If you do not, well, you're not going to go very far ahead.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: We come back to this point that.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: We talked about in part one of the. You want to attract people to you and great people. And part of how you do that is communicate great things, put great things out into the world, and the likelihood of people responding to that and you not having to go identify them, maybe sometimes they'll come towards you. Right. Be pulled towards you. Exists.
[00:05:07] Speaker C: Well, you'd hope. You'd hope that. You know, I never seek out people to try to get attracted to or whatever. Whatever. I just. I'm just who I am. And that's how I've always wanted to portray myself as. What you get is what you see. I'm sorry. You know, I'm totally transparent. I think that that was the mask that I always wanted to wear, and I learned that early on. It's really a secret to success in a lot of things. It really is.
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Okay, so let's shift now to building teams. So you talked a little bit about this, about choosing co founders, choosing to have co founders, but also just kind of how you assemble teams of people. So tell us a little bit how you think about that. You've got an idea tomorrow for a new great company. What do you do?
[00:05:46] Speaker C: You have to choose the people. You don't hire them. You choose them. All right? There are several criteria that you use to choose. Number one is really. I call it. I call it the no asshole clause. You never want to work with assholes unless you can't avoid it. All right? And you know, there are a lot of assholes in the world who are successful, okay? And you have to consider, you know, making those choices. Right. Maybe somebody is very, very skilled in some scientific endeavor, but if they have a malignant personality, then a team will never be able to form or congeal around them or with them.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: My version of that, Mike, is sometimes, especially when you're junior or you're starting out, that's still the right answer because you'll decide, well, this person's difficult, unpleasant, nasty, whatever it might be, But I'm going to choose to work with them because I'm going to learn a bunch of things. It's going to create an opportunity for me. I think that's quite okay. So I agree with you. I wouldn't say don't do that, but as soon as you can.
[00:06:43] Speaker C: As soon as you can. That's the key, is that. So when you're growing, you need mentors and mentees and all that kind of stuff, role models. You need to. You need to work with those people with, you know, difficult personalities.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:54] Speaker C: But then eventually you reach my stage when I can determine who I work with and who I don't work with.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: You make More choices. Yeah, that's right.
[00:07:01] Speaker C: The choice is mine. The issue is that look at the situation. I carry the technology. It's in my head. Without my technology in my head, nothing will occur. All right, you try. Go ahead, start a company. I don't care. You know, you're not going to be able to accomplish that. So.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Yeah. By the way, I think I do not have that. I do not have technology hiding in my head that no one else has. But I still think that you can afford to be quite picky about the personalities of the kinds of people that you're willing to work with. So when I think about even people on our scientific advisory board, I have that same, like, no assholes rule. Yeah. It has stood me in good stead. Yeah.
[00:07:34] Speaker C: It's a smart one. I'm telling you, one malignant person in any board or any advisor or consultant.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:40] Speaker C: Will destroy an organization.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's right. I always say you can't fix a rotten apple problem by adding more good apples.
[00:07:48] Speaker C: Yes. And I saw this early on. My dad's group, the Retina Associates there was the best group in the world at the time. All right. And I'm not gonna tell you who it was, but there was one bad apple.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Got it. Yeah.
[00:07:59] Speaker C: And now, now they don't exist.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Cautionary tale, right?
[00:08:03] Speaker C: Cautionary tale. I learned this very, very early on. That's why I realized that you can't. You cannot have a malignant personality. It will destroy organizations and destroy relationships, destroy everything.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: Okay, so next theme. When you're starting a business, you have a mix of researchers, pure science folks, clinicians, business people. How do you create a shared language, a shared culture, get people to communicate with each other? How do you think about going after that kind of stuff?
[00:08:30] Speaker C: It's actually, again, the choosing part. You only choose people who are cross functional.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Okay. I really like that.
[00:08:36] Speaker C: And also do not believe in silos.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:08:40] Speaker C: Silos destroy organizations. If you silo your science department from your finance department, from your clinical department, and there's no crosstalk, if the people who are heading those sections or departments in your company feel like that's the way to go, it'll destroy your company.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: I strongly agree with that. And I think not only is it bad for communication at senior levels, it's really terrible on junior people because if you're sort of aware that, hey, I don't understand something that's happening in some other part of the organization, and it's not okay for me to. To go and ask my peer in that thing because that's not how we do it. Everything is siloed off. It's very enervating and disempowering for those people as well. So I strongly agree with that idea. I really like your point about the initial selection. You're selecting for people who are willing to play well or enjoy playing with others. They understand this is a team sport on some level.
[00:09:28] Speaker C: Exactly. So the whole concept of team sport has to be there. You know, I actually was more like an individual person in terms of sports. Like I ski. I was also a wrestler. All right. Very individual sports. But I decided that I need to know what the team sport looks like. So I became a lacrosse player.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: Oh, no kidding.
[00:09:45] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: So again with the analytical. See, I didn't do that. I ran track in high school and didn't really play sports in college. And I sort of found my way to collaboration another way.
[00:09:55] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: I have often found myself with colleagues where most people had been college athletes. Most of my peers have been college athletes. Because the competitiveness and collaboration and stuff that you can get out of team sports I really value. But I didn't do it. So you were. Of course, you figured this out early and aimed for it.
[00:10:12] Speaker C: The other thing though is that in biotechnology and also in computer science, they're sort of antithetical to the athletic person.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: True.
[00:10:20] Speaker C: Okay. So I can't use team sports as a criteria for selecting some of these scientists and technical people, unfortunately.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah, well, there are other ways to get there.
[00:10:32] Speaker C: Maybe for the executive team or whatever. Yeah, there are other ways to get there.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:35] Speaker C: I mean, and usually you can sense that if they. Especially for the scientific side, where they worked before or where they grew up.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:41] Speaker C: Who their mentors were, who their mentors were, and if their mentors were collaborative types or not very insular, et cetera, they're probably the type of people you want to work with.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a great point.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: Because it's not necessarily simply about how introverted or extroverted they are. We've all met extroverted assholes.
[00:10:57] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:10:57] Speaker A: And there are plenty of introverts who are great collaborators. So I think that's. Right. Digging into what are their foundational myths around what kind of organization they want to be part of, who did they learn from? Who do they admire? That all makes a lot of sense.
[00:11:09] Speaker C: The third criteria though, for me at least, is the ability to solve problems. Problem solving is a under lauded skill. Unfortunately, most people who are scientists, they're not trying to solve problems, they're just trying to perform experiments.
[00:11:21] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:11:22] Speaker C: Yeah. People who solve problems well usually ask the right questions first and then answer the question with data and science. And that can be really picked up. It can't be picked up with just an interview. What has to happen is that you have to actually know their work. Right. They have to publish something. You know, the resumes are not enough stuff. So you have to actually task them with like, I give them problem solving skills. Like, let's say you want somebody who's going to solve a CMC problem, right? Well, tell me, here's your problem. Right. Solve it for me. And then I look at their thinking and I try to understand what their thinking is like and how they chop up the different portions of the problem and then how they would solve it and see how imaginative they are, et cetera, et cetera. And then I would compare that closely with what they have done before and seeing if I want a troubleshooter, I want to see what you've troubleshooted before. You know, it could be your recipe to cook pasta. I don't care.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Figured out a better way to do it.
[00:12:11] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a problem solving skill is. I'm not going to say it's innate. You can develop it, but some people have an innate ability to solve problems.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's right. It's bias, isn't it? It's less.
[00:12:21] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:12:22] Speaker A: It's not necessarily about intelligence, although it helps to be smart.
[00:12:25] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:12:25] Speaker A: But some people are really biased towards like thinking of a problem as a puzzle as opposed to accepting it as an obstacle. You know what I mean?
[00:12:32] Speaker C: There you go. So a lot of people that you talk to, they say, okay, that can't be done.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:36] Speaker C: Because you can't jump over this fence. Right. And I'm going, why can't you jump over the fence?
[00:12:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:12:41] Speaker C: Keep asking why you haven't solved it. You haven't solved it. Right. And then a lot of times they don't ask the right question. For example, say you're working with a gene therapy company, right. And CRISPR, CAS9 company. And they have this wonderful way of really making the nick on the, on the DNA more sophisticated and more powerful. Right. So, okay, you solved that problem, but that's not really a problem, you know?
[00:13:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:13:04] Speaker C: This is very, very efficient. What you should have solved is how to get it into that particular cell.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:13:09] Speaker C: So you're solving the wrong problem.
[00:13:11] Speaker A: Don't take credit for the thing that was already there. Right. Go to the.
[00:13:14] Speaker C: Exactly, exactly, exactly. You just Did a step function there, the non step function. The revolutionary discovery would be how you get that construct into that particular cell, type and target it. That's the key.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Of course. That's how you generate real value.
[00:13:27] Speaker C: Exactly right.
[00:13:28] Speaker A: Because then you've, if you've solved a hard problem, the likelihood that raise dollars that you can attract interest, that utilize that thing are a lot higher versus what we apply. This sort of existing technology that goes.
[00:13:39] Speaker C: Back to one of my mantras is that if it's not difficult or it's not hard to do, it's not worth doing.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: Yeah, you see? Yeah, I love that. I, I strongly believe that. And interestingly, I saw a quote from the guy who founded Boom, Supersonic. Right. Which is this company.
[00:13:53] Speaker C: Oh yeah, I know. Boom.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Yeah. They're trying to bring back. Yeah, Supersonic Flight. They've got a pretty interesting model that solves a lot of the problems that the Concorde that had not solved. Right. So quite interesting. One of the things he said is when you pick a hard problem, you attract the kinds of people who get excited about solving hard problems. That's another way to attract more terrific people to collaborate with because it's like, hey, if we can fix this, we can solve this. That would really be something. And you know, the kind of person who says hell yeah to that is more likely to be someone who's going to be a problem solver and an engine in your company as opposed to an anchor.
[00:14:27] Speaker C: And that's what you need. That's exactly what you need. Perfect.
Are you curious about the people and breakthroughs shaping the future of biotechnology? Then you've got to check out Inside Biotech. Hosted by me, Gabriela Rubert, Inside Biotech features monthly conversations with the scientists, entrepreneurs and investors driving innovation in one of the fastest growing biotech hubs Los Angeles. Recent episodes featured topics like drug repurposing for treatment of certain cancers, science backed consumer wellness brands and navigating career transitions outside of academic research from cutting edge science to real career stories. It's where science, storytelling, big business and professional development all intersect. Search Inside Biotech wherever you get your podcasts and hit follow today.
[00:15:20] Speaker A: Okay, terrific. Let's talk about fundraising. So particularly in this moment, fundraising in biotric is a nightmare. But people are managing to do it and you've had a lot of success there. You've raised money for two companies that I know of successfully.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: How do you do it?
[00:15:33] Speaker A: Tell us a little bit about fundraising 101.
[00:15:36] Speaker C: Well, it starts out with where the money is coming from and also what those investors want to do with the money. So in particular lately, I just raised a large round with VCs, venture capitalists. So the only way to raise money from these venture capitalists is to provide them something that will give them a rapid return and also a large return in a short period of time. Okay, so what that means is that you have to look at the end customer of your company. And this is how I conceptualize companies. I look at first, the end result. Okay, what markets are we addressing? All right? Who are the potential buyers for this technology? And if there's no buyers per se, how can I convince retail investors that they should buy my stock if it goes ipo? Okay, so that's the end goal in mind in terms of when you're trying to address investors. The only way to raise money effectively is to have a product that will check off all those boxes. So let's say I have a cedar. I realize that the market that I want to address is the largest market in medicine. Actually, they say that geographic atrophy could be a $58 billion a year revenue business. All right? And if you can capture 50% of that, you will be the largest selling drug in the world. Okay, Number one. Number two, you have to be. You have to show functional benefit because the drugs that are available for this disease right now show no functional benefit. I'll tell the same thing for, like Alzheimer's, for example, Right? And right now, geographic atrophy has two drugs that are out there in the market that don't show functional benefit. They do show a slowing of the disease, which is very, very good. Okay?
[00:17:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:13] Speaker C: And they were approved and so on and so forth. So when I tried to raise money for this company, I made sure that my drug is going to be better than those two drugs that are out there and any ones that's coming out. Also, my drug has to address the underlying problem behind the disease, all right? And then you also have to show it not only preclinically, but clinically.
So what I had to do to raise money. Now, raising money is easy. Getting good valuation is not.
You understand? I could have sold this company. Like I got in a financing of like $100 million when I first started it, but I'd only retain what, you know, 2% of the company.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: Right, Right, right.
[00:17:51] Speaker C: Now, if that's what you want, so be it. That's fine. More power to you.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: All right, Onto the next thing.
[00:17:56] Speaker C: Yeah, right, right, onto the next thing. Right. But this technology is too good, you understand? I mean, deciphering the Nazi War code, you know, for the immune system.
[00:18:05] Speaker A: Pretty big deal.
[00:18:06] Speaker C: It's a pretty darn big deal, right? You know, I'll quote Mark Zuckerberg. You know, he goes, he's not going to sell Facebook because there's no other better idea coming down the pike.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah. What would I use the money for? Go and start a company like Facebook. Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.
[00:18:17] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Now, what I just did, actually, was another way of raising money. The issue is that you have to be able to tell the story and you have to make it understandable. This is what drama helped me do. Because you're always telling a story whenever you're playing a piece or you're directing a play or whatever. Right. And so you have to tell it in a way that the investors or the audience understands what you're talking about. If you come to them and say, oh, well, I developed a better way of doing gene splicing, which will make 100% efficiency rate of RNA modeling. You know, I mean, I'm going, okay, yeah. So, but what if I say I have a way of reprogramming the immune system so that it turns these inflammatory cells from soldiers into doctors that allows for recovery of vision and also a restoration or a cessation of damage to the retina. And then you say that geographic atrophy is just the Alzheimer's of the eye. So if I can get this drug into the brain, I will be able to solve Alzheimer's as well. You don't think with that line and with data backing you up? I mean, I have a phase 28 study that showed this.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:18] Speaker C: Now, I'm also a master clinical trialist. You know, I've been a PI for 150 clinical trials, so I know how to run clinical trials and design clinical trials. Now, a lot of my colleagues in the biotech world, they don't know anything about clinical trials or regulatory or IND filings or CMC or any of that stuff.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: Yeah, that's one of the challenges. There are a lot of disciplines that someone needs to have least competence in, because if you're not at least competent, you don't necessarily need to be great at everything. In fact, I think you're unusual. Most people can't be great at too many things. But if you're competent, you can assess expert resources, supplement your skills with a bunch of deep experts. And sometimes we see folks who are working outside of their area of competence. So they're hiring experts who are not experts. No, that's one of the challenges that CEOs face.
[00:20:03] Speaker C: And their team members are also not experts.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: Yes, exactly.
[00:20:06] Speaker C: It's a big problem, by the way, you know, if you have team members who are not experts at what they're supposed to do, then you're just going to come out with nothing.
[00:20:12] Speaker A: Yeah, you're exactly right. The old line used to be that the old management line used to do that. A people hire B people and B, people hire C people and so on. And that's nonsense. First of all, great people can hire other great people.
[00:20:23] Speaker C: That's what you need to do.
[00:20:24] Speaker A: They don't necessarily have to degrade. Right. But also, none of us are great at everything. So one of the tasks is to figure out what are my areas of competence there. I can probably trust my gut and my instinct.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: What are places where I'm not skilled.
[00:20:35] Speaker A: And then how do I supplement? How do I get someone else to help me make that decisions? So I make great hires in those places.
[00:20:41] Speaker C: The thing is, is that you should hire somebody or you should partner with somebody who complements your skills.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:20:46] Speaker C: And that's sort of what I always try to do. You always try to find people who compliment you, don't replicate you. It's very difficult to replicate me, unfortunately. But you know, but in terms of.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Like, yeah, you're a bit of a unicorn. But the thing to think about is I think there's still a bunch of takeaways here for people about trying to find complementary skill set and thinking about storytelling. I love the way you described that about turning them from soldiers to doctors. I mean, that's fantastic and comprehensible to any bright person. They don't need to be a deep expert in your technology.
[00:21:15] Speaker C: I used to mentor some, some individuals who wanted to go into biotech and I would say, give your pitch to your five year old.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great.
[00:21:22] Speaker C: See if he'll invest. Yeah, that's what I did for my first acuity. I pitched it to my eldest son, Stephen. He was like five.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: What did he say?
[00:21:31] Speaker C: And he goes, dad, okay, maybe I'll buy it.
I said, so I had to work.
[00:21:38] Speaker A: On my pitch though, so let's do that now. So what is your advice now to young people who want to do something entrepreneurial in life sciences, what would you say to them?
[00:21:46] Speaker C: My biggest advice always is to only solve big problems. Right. If you're going to start a company that's going to make a step, change, function, change on something. Yes.
[00:21:55] Speaker A: Slightly better.
[00:21:56] Speaker C: I call it a better mousetrap. I call that evolutionary innovation.
You should only focus because it's the same amount of effort. To have revolutionary innovation, you also have to be honest with yourself. You have to understand that is your innovation really revolutionary or evolutionary? A lot of people don't have the insight. I didn't have the insight for a little bit. Okay. Back in the early days, you know. But I learned after talking to Dr. Judah Folkman that you have to really think big. You got to ask the right questions and solve them. The advice I got, I think I told you about my first experiment with Avastin. What I did was I injected it into an eye and it caused the. Well, it caused a bad problem. If I had taken that Avastin and injected into a human person, it would have been a lawsuit and I would have lost my license and all that kind of stuff.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: Very bad. Okay.
[00:22:43] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The issue is that when I was sulking in the lab and 11 at night, and Dr. Folkman comes up to me and says, why are you sad? Because I told him my experiment failed miserably. He says the only question he asked was why? And that one statement goes, yeah, why?
[00:23:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:00] Speaker C: Could be an infection, it couldn't be this. So that's when I discovered that it was lipopolysaccharide or endotoxin. And then I spent six months purifying Avastin so that it was eliminated. All the endotoxin, the bets, they're called. And then I could do my experiment, and eventually that's history. Now imagine if Dr. Folkman hadn't approached me at that time.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: At 11 at night. We would not have Avastin, we would not have license, we would have to have a Leah, we would not have Macagen, we would not have any of these drugs.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: And you could say, even if he had approached you, but he was a.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: Different person, and he just said, oh, I'm sorry, you're down. You know, do you want to go have a cup of coffee or something?
[00:23:31] Speaker C: Yeah. If he had been the scientist that he was, the brilliant scientist that he.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: Was, he asked the right question.
[00:23:35] Speaker C: He asked the right question at the right time so that I could overcome this failure. I mean, it was a massive failure. Massive, beyond comprehension at that time.
[00:23:47] Speaker A: So that's a pretty important lesson, right, about asking why, when things go wrong, what can I learn from this?
[00:23:52] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: How can I change this? And it gets back to your thing about being a problem solver, because you could just be defeated. One could just be defeated by that and say, well, it didn't work. Or one can say, is there a way that I can determine what went wrong and then overcome that problem. And that's a very on brand for you. Okay?
[00:24:07] Speaker B: So that's really helpful.
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Aim for big problems and ask yourself why. And be persistent. Other things you'd suggest, don't be afraid to fail.
That's a big one.
[00:24:15] Speaker C: I mean, that's really a big one. That's a huge one, actually, if you don't fail. What I always wanted to do is fail often and start often, you know, because you just have to get up. This is lessons from sports, you know, lessons from. From wrestling. Right.
[00:24:27] Speaker A: You know, dust yourself off. Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:29] Speaker C: Let's say you're taking down. Well, do reversal. All right? I mean, you have to reverse your situation, and that takes a lot of work. And it also takes a lot of. It's a gut check, Right. If you don't want to get up and fight again, then don't be an entrepreneur.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: Don't be a CEO, something else.
[00:24:44] Speaker C: Don't be a doctor. Don't be anything. You know, maybe be a librarian. Because, you know, I'm telling self selection. Right. I mean, you have to be able to pick yourself up every time you. And you're going to fall a lot. And if you don't want to fall a lot, then don't be an entrepreneur. You know, don't be a CEO. Right.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: I mean, I think that's exactly right. And I think it's one probably lots of folks don't ask themselves, like there's some romance to the idea of entrepreneurial ventures, being a CEO, all those kinds of things. But ask yourself some tough questions maybe before you start down that path.
[00:25:19] Speaker C: I add to just what you just said. Also, you know, being a CEO is not a romance novel.
[00:25:24] Speaker A: That's. That's for sure.
[00:25:26] Speaker C: It's not something out of Netflix. Okay, Correct it. Actually, to start up a company, to be a CEO, especially of a biotech company, you should not have the goal to be. Make a lot of money to. To be able to go in the cocktail party and say, I'm a CEO.
[00:25:40] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[00:25:41] Speaker C: All right. That should not be your mission.
[00:25:43] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:43] Speaker C: You should have a bigger mission.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:45] Speaker C: You know, like my mission every time I start a company is I'm going to cure this disease. I'm going to cure that disease. All right? You know, my next challenge, of course, I think I've cured Alzheimer's and Mac degeneration. All right? And my next challenge is to cure cancer. And so I'm working on that night and day, actually, to be frank with you. And I think I have the answer, I now have to engineer the correct therapeutic. That's what I'm going to do.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: That's incredibly exciting.
[00:26:08] Speaker C: It's not to be a CEO of a company.
Right. It's not even to be an executive in a company. I don't give a. I don't give a hoot.
[00:26:14] Speaker A: Yeah, right. I think that's 100% right. I think the best CEOs that I know are pulled to it for some other reason. And it's certainly not about trying to be fancy at a cocktail party. All right, in closing, I just looked. The XBI is down another nearly 1% today. Do you have any thoughts about the current state of biotech, the challenges that we're all facing? Where you think things are going, you can pull out your crystal ball or step onto your soapbox, whichever you want.
[00:26:40] Speaker C: Well, when I spotted Acuity, it was after 9, 11.
[00:26:43] Speaker A: Okay, great.
[00:26:44] Speaker C: All right. This is the best time to start biotech companies.
[00:26:47] Speaker A: I love that answer. Say why. Why is it the best time?
[00:26:49] Speaker C: Well, it's because. So all the science that's out there, all the companies have been founded over the last several years have been called easy money.
[00:26:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.
[00:26:57] Speaker C: So a lot of technologies that are not really baked for prime time.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:01] Speaker C: Are getting funding.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:03] Speaker C: Now everybody's more selective. And only the smart people are investing.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: Yep. Right.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: The dilettantes have mostly gone away.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: Right?
[00:27:10] Speaker C: Exactly. If you have a really stupid idea, it should never have been funded.
[00:27:13] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:14] Speaker C: I can tell you that for a lot of companies. Okay. And only the good idea should rise to the top here. And the bad companies that go out and raise money, like millions of dollars and have really nothing, they dilute the whole industry. They actually dilute the talent, they dilute the capital, and they dilute the mission. Right. Because they're doing it just to make an extra buck to hopefully sell it to a bigger pharma company and get out of it. And they don't care what kind of drug they have. That's not the way biotech should be run. All right. Too much capital promotes really bad science.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's right. Both. Yes. There were companies that should never have been funded. There also were people running companies who shouldn't have been. Should have been running companies.
[00:27:54] Speaker C: Should have been running them. Yeah, exactly.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: So there were. And funders attracted who really didn't understand what a slog the biotech world is and that it will break your heart. You know, sometimes along the journey, I feel like it's the. The veterans and the pros. Are mostly the folks who are on the field right now.
[00:28:09] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:28:09] Speaker A: That does speak well for what this class of biotechs as a whole are likely to do, I think.
[00:28:14] Speaker C: Yep, yep. Absolutely. I love this environment, by the way. It's the best because the cream rises to the top, where it should be.
[00:28:20] Speaker A: That's first of all, an uplifting message at a time. We're not getting many of those. And cream rises to the top is exactly the way we should end this. Part two, Mike Tolentino. As expected. It was a blast. Thanks for joining me here on Few and Far Between.
[00:28:31] Speaker C: Thanks. Thanks so much.
[00:28:36] Speaker B: Welcome, producer Adam.
[00:28:37] Speaker D: Thanks. Thanks, Chris. So for part two today, I want to start off with another one of Mike's mantras. If it's not difficult to do, it's not worth doing. How do you separate the wheat from the chaff in clinical research?
[00:28:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it's worth unpacking. So, first of all, I think one of the things that I love about that is when you set an ambitious goal, you are sort of sending out a call to people who are motivated to do big and exciting things. So one of his points there is, is, you know, simply by staking out an aggressive objective, you have the potential to attract great people to your organization, and that is certainly valuable. Of course, the other piece is any kind of drug development is difficult and has tons of risk. So I think the other thing he's saying to us there is, why bother if this is really just going to be another me too product that's not going to achieve much in the way of differentiation, not going to solve an important problem. So I completely agree with that. Now, how you separate the wheat from the chaff, well, that's our job, right? So in clinical research, CROs like ours at Biorasi, we run the clinical trials that help biotechs to validate their hypotheses, hopefully prove them out, and then get to regulators. But we also say that the second best answer is a quick no. So better. Better to learn early that before you've spent millions and millions of dollars in years of your life that a pathway is not promising. Of course, the best answer is that, you know, everything works and you end up with a drug that the FDA gives you the green light on and ends up helping people. I think that really has to be proven out in the clinic.
[00:30:03] Speaker D: Definitely agree with you. So one of the other things that Mike said was about bad apples. And in your experience, how do you change the behavior of what Mike is calling a malignant personality, or do they have to be shown the door immediately in order to make sure the company's moving in the right direction?
[00:30:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's a. The CEO in that case, or the leader is trying to diagnose that person very quickly. And the diagnosis you're trying to make is, is this a person who can be fixed and fixed pretty significantly and positively pretty quickly, or is this a person who's not likely to change? And if it's the latter, that person needs to go and needs to go quickly. And I think one of the things that folks will say is, well, gee, you know, he or she, they're just so talented and valuable that we put up with them being cultural poison because of insert skill or ability that they have.
[00:30:54] Speaker C: And.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: And my experience, having done this for a long time, is that that's nonsense that you can find lots of great people out there and not all of them have personality disorders. In fact, most don't. Mostly people want to work collaboratively. You also find plenty of people who are difficult to work with because culture has been bad, they've had a bad experience in the past, et cetera. Those folks are fixable. And some of it is about being clear about what your expectations are and how you solve problems in the organization, setting patterns for escalation and stuff like that, and rewarding good behavior, punishing bad behavior. So I think he's 100% right that if you have a truly bad apple, you can't fix that, as I like to say, by adding more good apples. You got to get them out. And the sooner you do that, the better for the organization. I think that was really his message.
[00:31:37] Speaker D: To follow up on that. I had never heard the phrase that you guys were talking about, the management line, how A people hire B people.
[00:31:43] Speaker A: And B people hire C people.
[00:31:45] Speaker D: Speaking to that, how do you get all A?
[00:31:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that I disagree with that pretty strongly. That's kind of. I don't want to throw shade at business schools and MBAs. I am a product of that education. But I remember hearing that and reading it in case studies when I was an MBA student. It's nonsense, of course, because as you say, Adam, then nobody would ever hire folk who can play at the same level of the game as they play at whether they are A's, B's or C's. So it's a very cynical view, I think, of human nature. One of the things, though, that you look for is people who have, number one, the ability to understand what Good looks like. Right. So that means that they've been exposed to excellence and they're hiring in their discipline or related discipline so that they can recognize excellence when they see it. And B, who are the kind of people who look for really talented people who challenge them. You want to be in a place where your people make you up your game because they're just that good. And if you're looking for folks like that, you can hire, I believe, teams, full teams that play at a very sophisticated level. It doesn't mean that everybody's in the organization is going to be world class. In fact, in smaller companies, you can't afford that. You can't afford that across all of the different positions. But you want to be looking for people who are actively seeking folks who are peers to them in intellectually and in terms of their capabilities, maybe they're better than you in some ways. And that takes a certain amount of, I don't know, courage and some confidence. So I think you're hiring for people who have that courage and self confidence to choose folks like that and then who have the taste or experience to recognize it when they see it.
[00:33:14] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:33:15] Speaker D: And I think we've seen, especially in the last three or four previous episodes, a common theme for being collaborative and focusing on teamwork.
[00:33:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, the sort of myth of the, the individual who by his or herself makes a discovery, creates a company, does all these things that is, is very, very, very rare. I'm sure there are instances of it. But most of the time, especially in something as complicated as drug development, you need people with different kinds of expertise. So the best chief medical officers and CEOs that we talk to understand that. And they're looking for a head of Clinops or Quality or Data or chief scientific officer or what have you, who brings different things to the table than what that executive has. And only by building strong teams and teams that can collaborate with each other, I think do you usually get the kind of answer that you can get to success.
[00:34:03] Speaker A: Gotcha.
[00:34:04] Speaker D: So Mike said, and I was a little bit open mouthed at this, that the best time to start a biotech company is now.
[00:34:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:12] Speaker D: Why is that true?
[00:34:13] Speaker B: Well, first of all, go Mike.
[00:34:15] Speaker C: Right.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: I mean that's, that's what we, that's what we want our entrepreneurs to think.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: We want them always to be like.
[00:34:19] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do this thing. And I think that was an example of that. So that's, that's point one. I think as a class, we usually find that some of the most successful Companies are companies that are founded during hard times. Some of that is self selection that the mediocre companies and the dilettantes don't try to start companies at these times. It's tough minded, highly skilled people who are able to get the company started, raise that initial funding, persevere in the face of a lot of headwinds. So that's how I interpret what he said. What I love about Mike is he might say, no, no, no. I actually think it's literally the best time. I don't think it's an easy time right now, but I do think the companies that come out the class of 25, if you will, will likely turn out to be really exciting companies a few years down the road.
[00:35:00] Speaker D: Good answer there. So, yeah, I guess my last question is I wanted to get some of your take on the experience of you being a mentor and also a mentee. And basically how do you inspire and empower people to solve big problems?
[00:35:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:15] Speaker B: So first, a bit of advice. As a mentee, it is very rare in your life that someone will come up to you, there'll be dramatic music and they will say, I want to be your mentor. So you have to go and seek mentors out and there needs to be something in it for the mentor as well as for you. So remember that the mentor is by definition someone senior to you and someone who's good at what they do and therefore likely busy. And so there has to be something in it for that person. Now that could be that you are very appreciative of the time that they give you. It could be that you find other ways to reciprocate and be helpful to that person. The that you make, I don't know, a useful introduction or you offer to take something annoying off their plate, be helpful with something, that sort of stuff. So as a mentee, you should be first, always looking about for mentor candidates and second, thinking about what's in it for the mentor to get them to spend this time with you, get to know you and help you. And then I would say the reverse of that. As a mentor, it's disappointing to me if someone comes to me and asks me for advice. They don't have to do the thing that I say for sure because, you know, we're all independent actors in the world. But I'm disappointed if one of two things happens. Either the person never comes back to me and tells me what they did. That's disappointing. And part of what I get out of it is the charge of hearing like, oh, if they implemented an idea that I suggested to them. That's great, that's really motivating for me. So I don't. They're then robbing me of that psychic return. And the other thing is, if they decide not to listen to me, which again is perfectly fine, but they don't tell me that or argue with me sometimes there's some people that I talk to and I get the sense that they're being polite, but they don't agree with the thing that I'm saying. That's not a very satisfying conversation either. So, you know, as a mentor, which I am, I like looking for people who are dynamic, who are going to go and do interesting things, who will bring me interesting problems that we can work on together, and then will tell me kind of what they decide to do and how it works out. You know, win, lose or draw. That's what makes the relationship gratifying. So again, as an aspiring mentee, you should be trying to put yourself in the shoes of those mentors with whom you would like to spend time and thinking about how can I provide something, a satisfying experience for them? So they're going to want to do this.
[00:37:18] Speaker D: Yes, I completely agree with that. I think that you really need that give and take. And it's not just a professional give and take. It's a personal give and take. And I think that's what helps build those strong bonds that survive beyond working together at one company and allow you to have a colleague, a network or a peer in the Future.
[00:37:36] Speaker B: Yeah, you're 100% right. So I think we'll close out there. That's our advice for would be mentees. And if you're a mentor, I'll say this in closing. There's a guy I know in Boston. He's a brilliant guy. He's a professor, Harvard Medical School. And he started posting on LinkedIn. Hey, I'm offering office hours to the general public, the general public being his LinkedIn connections, but, you know, lots and lots of folks, because he presumably wants to get involved in some stuff that wants to do more of this, wants to share his insight and gifts with more people, which is wonderful. So that's a pretty smart move, I think. And I know there are lots of people who would probably like to be doing more mentoring and don't have a forum for doing that. So, you know, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, that's me, find a way to do that. That can be about promoting that on LinkedIn. It also can be about getting involved with the local industry association. MassBio does a bunch of this. There are incubators and there are university programs where you can get get involved with working with startups. So, you know, do a little digging and get involved because you shouldn't be sitting on the bench with all that wisdom. Listener.
[00:38:33] Speaker D: Awesome advice.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: All right, we'll close it there. Adam, thanks thank you for listening to the latest episode of Few and Far between conversations from the front lines of drug development. Our podcast is now available on Apple Podcasts and other streaming services. Please take a moment and leave us a user review and rating today. It really helps people discover the podcast and we read all the comments. Those comments help us make Few and Far between better and better. Also, be sure to subscribe to Few and Far between so you don't miss a single episode. Got an idea for a future episode? Email us at fewandfarbetweenirrosti.com or contact us on our
[email protected] I'm your host, Chris O'. Brien. See you next time.
[00:39:19] Speaker A: Sa.
