[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the latest episode of the Few and Far between podcast. I'm your host, Chris O'Brien. Every biotech has a story to tell, but do they have the expertise needed to tell that story?
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Well?
[00:00:25] Speaker A: Without a proper framework for leadership, teamwork and company culture, chronic critical milestones from funding to clinical trials can loom large. For today's guest, his story remains anchored to his career goal of getting a drug approved. John Chalepi is the CEO of Sensei Biotherapeutics, an immuno oncology company dedicated to understanding and interacting with the tumor microenvironment in order to tilt the immune system against cancer. On today's episode, John and I discussed the critical pieces needed for assembling a core management team. The the importance of openness and inclusivity in company culture, and the benefits of being a little scrappy when it comes to venture funding. We'll also double click on Sensei's Lead drug candidate, SNS101, the target immune, checkpoint Vista, and overcoming key challenges through new tech, hard work and a bit of luck. I hope you enjoy this episode and find a few insights that you can apply to your own company's roadmap to success. We're going to try something new in 2025, so stick around at the end of the podcast where producer Adam Gottlieb and I will discuss the highlights and digest the episode. Okay, let's start the podcast.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: John Chalebi, you are the president and CEO of Sensei Biotherapeutics. Welcome to Few and Far Between.
[00:01:43] Speaker C: First, thank you so much. I'm really looking forward to the discussion today.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: I've been looking forward to it as well. One of the things that's really interesting, I think, about your journey and the company's journey is it was very different when you joined from what you guys have built now. So can you take us back in time to when you first joined the company? Tell us a little bit about what it looked like then and then maybe we can march through time.
[00:02:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd be happy to. I think like many biotech companies, it is a journey. So I've been with Sensei for seven years now, and over that time span, the company's changed a lot. But when we got there, when I got there seven years ago, it was a very small company, I think about a dozen employees. We had one venture investor, privately held company. You know, we were working out of an office park in Maryland. You know, different management team, different boards. So yes, a lot has changed over the last seven years. Happy to talk about the journey.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Let's go first to what you found when you got there. What attracted you in the first place to the company, this nascent biotech. We know this is a pretty common story, right? There are lots of interesting early stage companies that get developed, not that many of them get to the stage that Sensei is at now. So tell us a little about what intrigued you kind of out of the gates.
[00:02:49] Speaker C: Well, a lot of things, but I'll focus on two in particular and the first I think was the science. And for better or for worse, that's always what's guided my career decisions for the most part I would say I've always been focused on the science and the company had a very interesting approach to immunomodulation. It was differentiated. One of the most interesting aspects of it for me was that I was, even though it was a little bit obscure, I was familiar with it because I had with a company previously that was doing very high throughput proteomics work and we had discovered this very interesting target that no one ever had worked on before. Lo and behold, that's the target that Sensei was working on.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: Someone designed a company just for me, kind of.
[00:03:31] Speaker C: That's right. It was feel it made, it was a no brainer. The other thing that was really interesting is that I mentioned the company had one investor. It was primarily being funded by a venture group that was supported by one of the founders of Broadcom Corporation. And so it was a little bit outside the mainstream biotech. And you think, why is that interesting to you? Well, I've done a lot of different types of startups, I've helped get a lot of different companies off the ground. I've worked with some of the premier VCs in the industry. I've been with publicly held companies and I think what I saw here was an opportunity to also be an advisor to that fund, to really build things my own way, to take the then 25 years of experience I had and create something out of whole cloth which you might not get the opportunity to do if you're at the next flagship startup. So that was really exciting to me.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: That's really cool. So that's sort of what some people might consider a bug you found to be a feature. Some folks might say, oh well, it's great to come into a company that's been supported by professional full time biotech investors who then have to some degree have a template and a set of things that they've put into place. And you thought, you know what, actually I'm really Excited about the chance to sort of design and build. Is that right?
[00:04:44] Speaker C: That's right. I'm not making an argument against working for the big VCs. Everyone should do it. The network is incredible. The support you get is incredible. It's about time and place in your journey and your career and you know, the confidence you have in your own ability to build something yourself.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Okay, so you get there and do you immediately think, oh great crap, there's a whole bunch of stuff missing or is it about what you expected?
[00:05:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I was pretty clear eyed about the challenges, but actually it was even greater than I expected for sure. And there were a whole host of things. You know, at one point somebody asked me what mice we should use for a preclinical model, which was a compliment, but I'm definitely not the right guy to ask that question to. So I realized pretty early that we needed to build a team of advisors and a management team to really push things forward. And we did.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Okay, let's double click on that. That's fantastic. The mouse question. As you. It's a high compliment when somebody who has more domain expertise than you asks you for help with a question like that. But so you look around and how do you get started? You have your own network, but you don't have an investor network that's invested in the company. So how do you get started thinking about the first kind of critical pieces for assembling the management team and the board. And you know, I think you are a framework kind of guy. You think that way. I know from our previous conversation. What are some lessons maybe people can learn from how to think about that?
[00:06:01] Speaker C: Well, I think the first thing that I focused on was putting the groundwork in place to bring in new investors with deep biotech understanding and knowledge. And you know, that all took about 18 to 24 months. But to do that, I needed to prep the company. We needed to build a scientific advisory board. We needed a few more executives on the board that could, I think we could challenge ourselves with and also a few additional board members that had connections in the industry. So while we were building all those things, I began to do subtle outreach. Tell the story, incorporate feedback into the next evolution of the story. And lo and behold, a couple years later we did a crossover round and we're preparing for an ipo.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: Fantastic. So is that the right order to think about it in that sounds like it makes sense to me. Build your scientific advisory board, build your leadership team and then go out to the VCs, obviously, if you can afford it. It depends on what your cash situations. But assuming that you've got enough Runway, do you think that's a good order in which to approach it?
[00:06:59] Speaker C: I do. I think you hear a lot of companies that are venture funded talk about stealth mode. That's how we were thinking about Sensei, stealth mode. We weren't exactly in stealth by definition, but we were still putting the critical pieces in place to enable much broader discussions with deep pocket investors that could really contribute to the company's wellbeing.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: Were those folks generally looking for a fully fleshed leadership team or do you think of it as sort of a set of critical resources, but you don't need to have all of the chairs filled? How should one think about that? Imagine yourself in the shoes of someone who is about to step into a similar kind of situation to what you found.
[00:07:35] Speaker C: It was not a fully formed leadership team at that point. What we did was. What I did in the early days was really focus on bringing in folks that could help tell the various parts of the story. Right. So, you know, as CEO, you want to be able to tell the story at the highest level, but you need a chief medical officer. In our case, as we were preparing for the clinic, who could really lay out the value proposition for the clinic clinical experiment we were going to run. We needed a head of research who could really describe the science and a finance person who understood how to build a three year plan and tell that story. So that's what we focused on first. And when we did, when we got more significant funding, we built out the rest of the team. So yeah, I would say that that's the order that I've always sort of approached it. I'm sure there are other ways, but that's the logical order for me.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: I like that a lot. As a framework, think about the story that you're trying to tell and the expertise that's required to tell that story well. And maybe that's the minimal team that you need. And then once have that story and that team can then raise more funds, recruit more expertise, all that kind of stuff. It sounds like that's what you're saying, is that right?
[00:08:38] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I really like. That's a powerful frame, I think, for getting started there. Okay, let's talk a little bit about Sensei and the technology that you guys have built. Will you give us a little overview of the science in the company?
[00:08:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd be happy to. It's an interesting story because I think a lot of companies have a notion of what the platform is going to be. And then they asked themselves the question, what are the most appropriate drug targets and modalities that we can apply to make the best use of our platform? In our case, it was all sort of flipped on its head. We had some prior knowledge and a lot of interest in a particular drug target called Vista. And we realized there were a couple of discrete challenges that required new technology. And so that the platform kind of emerged from the idea about the drug target, how to, how to drug that target and what specific challenges we need to overcome. And from, from that whole concept, we actually developed a pipeline. So we took the learnings from our original antibody that we created for Vista and applied it to several different drug targets that had similar properties.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: Gotcha. So, yeah, reversed from what we more commonly hear. Right. Was that luck or strategy? It sounds like a pretty helpful way to build a platform. I guess you're then building, ideally you're building fit for purpose technology as opposed to trying to build stuff that is interesting and then trying to find an application for that. Is that the right way to think about that?
[00:10:00] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, let's be honest, there is a lot of. You use the word luck. I think there's a lot of luck in drug discovery. This was informed by 10 years of hard work. So we had some insights that we had developed. And what I'm talking about is the challenges associated with Vista. So, you know, we knew from prior efforts from Johnson and Johnson and a French company called Pierre Fabre that they had developed drugs targeting Vista as well. And these antibodies tended to have some poor pharmacological properties and also were quite toxic. And I should also say the net result of that was they never really tested those drugs at pharmacologically relevant dose levels. They had to stop pretty early due to tox. So we felt if we could overcome those two challenges, we could really be the first company to test Vista. And so what we came up with was a conditionally active approach. The idea being that under certain conditions the antibody have action inside the tumor and bind its target, and under other conditions outside the tumor it would not. And by using that approach in phase one, we were able to show, yes, that's working. We've now dosed at a level that's 50 fold higher than J and J. And we have commercially, very commercially reasonable dosing schedule for this program and low.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Tox because it's not active really outside of the tumor.
[00:11:17] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: Fascinating. Okay, and so from there, knowing that you have that core functionality, how did you then zero in on, you know, what are the endpoints we're aiming for in the initial trials and where do we see this drug having application?
[00:11:31] Speaker C: It was actually, you know, we were fortunate to be in the position we were with two, at least two prior precedents that we knew of. And I mentioned poor pharmacology and tox. Those were by far the two most important things for us to check off our list. And so our top priority became in phase one dose, as quickly as you can get to the highest drug level, you can show that your drug is safe, show that you have a long half life. We enrolled patients. That's basically an all comer study to accomplish that goal. And that's exactly what we were able to show.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really terrific. So where do you stand today?
[00:12:07] Speaker C: Right now we've moved on from dose escalation. We were happy to report back in June that we had no dose limiting toxicities in our study.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: It's really, really exciting.
[00:12:19] Speaker C: Yeah, half life of several weeks. So we were quite pleased with. And then we switched our focus. We really started focusing on a more refined patient population of patients that are likely to respond to immunotherapy, are more selective for certain indications that are more likely to respond to immunotherapy. And so our goal now has become let's show this drug is active and that's the milestone that we have coming in the first half of next year.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: Fantastic. So as you look ahead, how do you think about the balance between progressing with this core trial? Obviously that's the number one priority right now, and then eventually expansion, other indications, other use cases, all of that kind of stuff. How do you balance that kind of stuff with a platform like the one you're building?
[00:13:01] Speaker C: Well, this is not going to come as a surprise to you or your listeners. I think your first drug is so important and it really is, without sounding melodramatic. Right. For many companies it's really a crucible moment where you really show where your platform makes sense, not just your drug. And so we've put, I would say an inordinate amount of focus on our lead program for that very reason. We want to get this right and we want to show the world that this whole concept works, not just Vista. So that's been our focus, I think over the last year for sure. And I think over the next six months we'll continue to be highly focused on our lead program. And just this is proof of principle for us. And I think it's a lesson learned over time from prior Experiences as well.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: Yeah, very logical actually, but a hard one. Lesson, I think it's very tempting for people to. For CEOs, so much of the job is knowing what to say no to. I suppose like the pretty interesting ideas or even quite interesting, but just not things that you can focus on right now in order to stay focused on whatever the core is. And the core is your core asset. As your first program, I think being.
[00:14:04] Speaker C: Able to say no in a disciplined way and explain to your team why you're saying no is critical. In biotech, we did a fairly large IPO in 2021. We haven't sold a single share of stock since then and we still have cash into 2026. So we really resisted the temptation to over expand to build our employee base. We've stayed lean and I think who was to know that a three year biotech downturn was coming? Right. I'm so grateful that we had talented finance professionals to help guide this ship as we navigated these choppy waters.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: So that looks prescient now, right? Having gone public in 21. Amazing. And then having been conservative with your spend over the ensuing period so that you've still got cash. We'll talk a little bit more about the market in a minute, but if we just stay right now on that decision, was that easy? Was that obvious to the board and to you? Or was that a debate of should we go faster?
[00:15:00] Speaker C: We moved pretty quickly, but I would say it was always been a debate. There are all sorts of interesting questions, scientific questions that you want to get answered. And I think what we were able to do, I think was successfully build a culture where we had an ability to ask those questions very comfortably and frequently and then bringing it back to what's really most important for the company over the next several years. And that's where our focus has been. So partly it's a cultural issue, I think, of being able to have a culture of openness, inclusivity, and I think that's partly my evolution as a CEO as well.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: Let's talk about building that culture. We've all been probably in environments where you can ask questions and environments where that's not encouraged. You weren't quite starting from scratch, but it was a pretty small company when you got there. Will you tell us a little bit about how you think about culture and then what you did to establish the culture that you have?
[00:15:50] Speaker C: I think culture is the toughest thing to think about. Part of it is completely out of your control. One of the things that's related to that topic Is, you know, how does a CEO manage the company, manage his team? And I think like a lot of CEOs, early in my time as a CEO, I felt the need to weigh in on a lot of different decisions. And you know, over time what I realized is that inadvertently what you're sending sometimes can be a message to your team that they need to check in with you on everything. Or yes, you know, they, they may feel the need to, or might withhold asking a question because they know you're going to follow up anyway. You know, I guess long winded way of saying, I've sort of, of focused more now on building a team of very capable people that can oversee their functions, run it, know have good communication skills, so they know when to check in, and building governance processes that allow for forums where information can be shared. That is a lot more important to me now than it was when I started seven years ago. And I think what I figured out in that time is a lot of culture flows from that process.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
[00:16:56] Speaker C: You have to have the right people, you have to have the right team, you have to have good science. And all that is total, totally true. That's the most subtle part of being a CEO that I think I've grown from over the last seven years.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Let's double click on that and go in a little more detail. I think what you've said is actually a profound point, especially for not even just new CEOs, but even new team leaders, because trying to do everything, trying to make every decision doesn't scale and it's a recipe for disempowered teams or companies. So tell us a little bit, how did you get started with building that process? I imagine if someone walks in now, it looks obvious, oh, you got a bunch of really talented people and they're collegial and it just seems to kind of work. But that's not how humans necessarily are left to their own devices. So how did you get there?
[00:17:38] Speaker C: Suboptimal decision making.
I think a lot of people in biotech are curious by nature. So you go through a process sometimes of maybe having a decision, decisions that were made well, but that were made way more painful than they needed to be. And sometimes the wrong decision that you look back on and say, how could we have done better? And digging through that rubble long enough, you know, I think over time I sort of reached the conclusion that what we really needed was a culture of listening to each other, really deep listening, trusting each other, the subtlety of how you communicate. I mentioned governance processes, you know, putting a lot more thought into who is at the meeting, what is the topic, who are the people that are speaking up here, what is the decision making authority of that body and what situations am I going to weigh in? And so, you know, I'm a lot quieter in meetings now than I was seven years ago. And I think that's been good for the team and it's been good for me. I think things run better.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: It's a subtle point, right, but one that's really important to learn to make sure that everyone who has something to say is hopefully saying it, but still not end up in a place where you're just spinning with lots of talking and no decision making. Tell us a little bit about that. So sometimes in any organization you'll have lots of interesting points of view and it's a good conversation. What's your process for pushing to action? If in fact that's something that if I'm identifying a real thing, you hit.
[00:19:01] Speaker C: The nail on the head. I mean, that's probably my biggest role in some of these meetings, is keeping things focused. Ideas are welcome, they don't all need to flow for me. And so the thing I really try to focus on is are we staying on point and then bringing that up in a way that doesn't make people feel shut down? You don't want to shut people down. And yeah, I mean, I think that's really the art, not the science of running a biotech company.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: Was there addition by subtraction as part of your journey? In other words, did you feel like everyone critical could be converted to seeing the world that way or naturally saw the world that way? Or are there something sometimes when you can't get people all the way there?
[00:19:32] Speaker C: Teamwork is a mishmash. It's about finding the right people, the right combination of people, and ensuring that you're all on the same page. And I think there is an organic part to that that sort of flows naturally. And if you have your ear to the ground, it can sort of tell you who's fitting into that culture and who's not. Those are decisions that are required sometimes. In other cases, it sort of takes care of its.
[00:20:00] Speaker B: Hi, this is Chris O'Brien, host of Few and Far Between Conversations from the frontline of drug development. We'll be right back with this episode in a moment. I personally want to thank you all for listening to our podcast now in our fifth season. It continues to be an amazing opportunity to speak with some of the top thought leaders in the drug development industry. If you're enjoying this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps people discover the pod. And don't forget to subscribe to Few and Far between so that you never miss an episode. One last request, know someone with a great story. You'd like to hear me interview you. Reach out to
[email protected] thank you. And now back to the podcast.
All right, I want to flip to the market a little bit and a thing that I think you said to me the other day was that biotech and Wall street are not usually aligned. Will you talk a little bit about the lack of alignment? And then of course, as an investor running a public company, you've got to figure out how to create. Create enough alignment for that to work for both parties. Tell us a little bit about that.
[00:21:01] Speaker C: Yeah. And just to be specific about the comment, I think it was more about timelines than anything else. I think Wall street tends to work on a quarterly basis where biotech it can take eight to 10 years to get a drug approved. And so I think there is an inherent mismatch for especially smaller biotech companies that are publicly traded, where you sometimes can feel enormous pressure to put news out on a quarterly basis and sometimes that can feel like a stretch. I think it's a very strong argument, by the way, for withholding an IPO until you have a truly more mature portfolio of programs where there's regular news flow, where you're in the clinic perhaps, and so forth. I think that there's been this big rush, especially over the last five years, to get out into the public market.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: As a way to raise money as quickly as possible.
[00:21:53] Speaker C: As quickly as possible. I think given the markets over the last three years, I suspect that there'll be a pullback in that regard.
[00:21:59] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:21:59] Speaker B: By the way, I love that as a frame for thinking about when you go public is when will I have a predictable amount of news that I can feed to the market that is actually real and therefore satisfying? I guess to an investor community. I haven't heard that before. Kind of a news based framework for thinking about going public.
[00:22:17] Speaker C: Yeah. And you know, the alternative is you're forced into these binary decisions about do you put this press release out? What do you say? It is a finely tuned act. I think before you go public, map out the next two or three years of what your communication strategy, we call it a messaging ladder internally. And I think that was very helpful for us.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a powerful point. So you've Been a private company CEO with a venture base and then you transitioned to being a public company CEO. What are some of the things you had to either modulate, change, or learn with that different investor community?
[00:22:49] Speaker C: I think one of the most important lessons that I've learned here at Sensei and beforehand, I think is really being scrappy. Having started with one venture investor, we had to get really creative. I mean, we had to get really thoughtful about the investors we were pitching to, adjusting our message and being open to ideas about how we could build a syndicate around that. And so there's no one way to do it. I think there's a lot of advice you'll get if there is. Sure. If you can get a blue chip investor to come in and lead you around, that is, you know, I wouldn't go against that advice.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Better than not having a blue chip investor. But it's not the only way to do it.
[00:23:28] Speaker E: Right.
[00:23:28] Speaker C: It's not the only way to do it. And the majority of biotech financings don't work that way. So I think being open to new ideas, spending a lot of time thinking through how to message to the particular audience that you're with is really key to raising money. Especially these days. Everybody, look, three years ago, anyone could raise money. The companies that are raising money now, I think are doing exactly that. They're getting creative and they're thinking about how to message.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we're going to see in hindsight that the crop of companies that raised money in 23 and 24 are going to be disproportionately interesting because there was just such a focus on quality in the investor community. You talked a little bit about learning to say no before you made a decision about your tech platform shortly after you went public. Will you talk about that? That was, I think, maybe an example of the learning to say no thing.
[00:24:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think we really emphasize the science driven culture here. Rewinding the clock about three years. It was about six months after we went public that we reviewed clinical data and realized that our then Phase two program was not meeting expectations. It was, I think, a scary moment. It was a moment of clarity for what kind of culture we wanted to build and realizing those things. We made the tough decision to eliminate that program and move on to our Vista program. I think, you know, a lot of companies face those moments. I'm really proud of how our team handled it. It was a thoughtful process. It was guided by science and it was done swiftly. And in a way, as I pointed out earlier, to really I think Preserve Capital, rather than seeing the experiment through the end, we cut it early because we weren't seeing what we needed to see. And I think that was a statement about the quality of the people we have here at Sensei.
[00:25:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I would imagine it's also highly validating for them and for the board to feel like you guys are prioritizing the things that matter. But it must have been a, you must have been like, you've got to be kidding me. Six months into my time as a public company and I'm now I'm out in the bright lights of the public markets and I have to make a big decision like this. Put us into your head a little bit as you were walking through that.
[00:25:34] Speaker C: Well, I mentioned it was a scary moment. I'm not lying. It was, but it was also a moment of clarity. I mean, one of the things that I've always had as a goal in my career is to get a drug approved. And I still do. When I interview people for roles here at Sensei, I ask them what their career goals are. And so if you want to get a drug approved, you realize pretty quickly that your career has a certain lifespan. There's only a certain amount of drugs you can work on and it doesn't do anyone any good to work on programs that you don't think are going to go anywhere.
[00:26:02] Speaker B: So.
[00:26:02] Speaker C: So with that in mind, I think we were pretty well aligned and focused on what the right decision was for that particular program. And you know, I think the other part of it is with enough life experience, you also, you also realize you're mortal. I mean, my own mother died from cancer just within the last six months. And I've been working in the healthcare industry for 30 years. I've always had that focus on getting a drug approved. And I thought I had a sense of urgency. Now I really have a sense of urgency. You know, you always ask yourself, could things have been different if a certain drug was approved two years ago rather than two years from now?
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Right. There is such extraordinary progress in oncology over the last decade, even over the last two decades, survival rates have changed so dramatically. And still there's an enormous amount that remains to be done. Okay, so as you're going into that tricky moment, scary moment, the things that were guiding post that helped you in making the decision, science led organization, a commitment by you and others that you were really focused on trying to get a drug approved. And third, the scrappiness and the sort of willingness to then stay lean, preserve capital, focus on the winners or the potential winner that you had. I think the lesson here for folks that are running companies or want to run companies is to think about those guideposts in advance. I imagine it would have been a very different process for you to John if the team didn't know that you thought these things. And so you suddenly deployed a PowerPoint slide with three bullets on it and said, folks, we should make our decision based on this. Is that right?
[00:27:32] Speaker C: That's absolutely right. And like I said, when you bring in people into your organization, you need to be transparent about what your values are. And you don't always get it right, but more often than not, those are the people you end up with.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: There's a podcast that has episode that hasn't gone live as of our conversation now, but probably will be by the time this goes out with some folks who are executive coaches who focus on helping biotech teams sort through a lot of this kind of stuff. And I really think that biotech teams that can be extraordinary at so many things can sometimes underweigh the importance of being explicit about what matters to the company. It can sound a little soft in comparison to, you know, the core science and raising funds and all that stuff. But I'm just going to triple underline what you said. I think it's incredible, incredibly important.
[00:28:17] Speaker C: There's nothing soft about it. I think a lot of companies dedicate time to team building. I look at that as necessary but not sufficient. They are soft skills, but it really comes down to the hard conversations that you have with one another during critical moments in time that lead to personal growth and career growth. And I think that's why I say there's nothing soft about it. These are difficult moments. I think every CEO would probably say this drug development's hard. Managing people is harder. And it's about building those skills into your own personal, personal repertoire and helping others grow, too, to get your culture to the right place.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: Very well said. Let's talk about what's coming next for Sensei. Where do you see the company going in 25 and beyond?
[00:28:58] Speaker C: Well, one of the things I love about biotech is, you know, you have these very clear inflection points, right? And so often it's binary for us. We have, I think, an enormous data readout coming in the first half of next year. It's focused on our first efficacy data for our lead program. It's going to be in a more focused patient population designed to selected, I should say, to really emphasize activity. So we're really looking forward to that. I think it's a huge point of validation, and I think it's not that far away.
[00:29:29] Speaker B: You're right. It's either a bug or a feature. I think about biotech that you get a report card in a different kind of way than you do in most other industries. Most other industries, you know, you have growth, you have new product launches, you have success or failure with customers. But biotech, you get a really clean upvote, no vote down vote depending, depending on what the results are of the trial. All right, that's great. That's very exciting. Let's talk about advice. So I ask you to put yourself into the head of a young person. So maybe this person is an undergrad or graduate student, somebody who's thinking about starting a company or joining a startup. Someone who's early in their career. Will you talk a little bit about mentorship and then we'll move into career advice, but let's do mentorship first.
[00:30:09] Speaker C: Advice is tricky because somebody's gonna come back and say, you told me to do this. Well, it's not for everybody, but I think what I was motivated by when I was start my career, finding a culture of innovation, one in which there was belief in the mission and finding a home where I could just figure out how this industry works and putting myself in position to really be a leader in the industry one day. So if that sounds like one of your listeners, then this advice is for you. I think focusing on learning, on being fearless, don't be afraid to do things your own way is super important. And at the same time, you mentioned mentorship. Look for mentors. They are out there, there most of the time in a mentor mentee relationship. The mentor gets more out of it than the mentee. You might not realize that, but it's true. And they're looking to guide young people in their careers. It's one of the most rewarding things one can do. So don't be afraid to ask for advice. Don't be afraid to sit down and say, look, I didn't understand this. Can you help me understand it? Help me explain it? And that's how those relationships are formed. I'm very fortunate to have had mentors in my career that stuck with me, that listened to me when I maybe had a contrarian view or was just being sort of a pain in the ass. And I think it's been invaluable. So that's something I would highly encourage people to do.
[00:31:30] Speaker B: That's fantastic. We've also talked a little bit about communication between scientists, between investors, et cetera. Can you talk about why that's important and how to do it?
[00:31:39] Speaker C: When I figure it out, I'll let everybody know. I think it's fair. It is an ongoing process. One of the things that science and investors have in common is there's sort of this relationship between dogma and cynicism. And you need to draw the right balance as a scientist. But investors, good investors, I think, go into every conversation with a healthy degree of cynicism. The challenge on the business side is turning a cynic into a believer. And that's the ultimate goal of every meeting. And I think scientists tend to not approach meetings that way. I think the kind of the elite CSOs in this industry have figured that out. Most of the time it's about constant messaging work and figuring out how to make your scientific points while also keeping it mind the broader goal. Hey, we're trying to bring this person over to our side, right?
[00:32:25] Speaker B: So balanced, but not overly balanced on the negative, I suppose, is the critical part of that. Is that what you're saying?
[00:32:30] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: Okay, Any final words of advice about career development? John, you've had a fascinating career so far. I hope lots more exciting stuff ahead if someone wants to get started. You've worked in different kinds of organizations, large and small. Where would you suggest somebody go early in their career?
[00:32:47] Speaker C: There's no right answer here. There's a lot of ways to do this. Let me start with by saying I think there's a couple things you shouldn't do and that's being focused on getting your ticket punched in all the right places. I run into a lot of folks that are focused on the right school, the right consulting job, the right company kind of brand.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Brand. Brand.
[00:33:05] Speaker C: Yes. And I think that's not something that should be absent from your thinking, but it shouldn't be the guidepost. At the end of the day, you need to follow your heart with the science. You need to work with people that you really enjoy working with. And I can tell you that the biggest career advancements I've had have come as a result of. Of relationships I've had with people over a long period of time and having fun together. And I think that's, that's probably the best advice I can give.
[00:33:31] Speaker B: John, I think that's a perfect note to end on. I will say that this conversation for me has been a lot of fun and we're all excited to see what comes next for Sensei. So thanks so much for joining us on Few and Far Between.
[00:33:42] Speaker C: Chris, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much.
[00:33:48] Speaker D: Okay, that was a great conversation. Lots to unpack there. And so I've invited producer Adam to join me here so we can talk a little bit about the episode.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: Welcome, Adam.
[00:33:57] Speaker E: Hey, Chris. Thanks for having me on. One of the things that I wanted to ask first off was the importance of framework in building up one of these new companies. Sounds like a very critical piece. Is that something you noted as well?
[00:34:09] Speaker D: Yeah, I think it's really good takeaway, especially for first time CEOs. John is a highly experienced guy, and so he has a little bit of a playbook and a framework for how you build out that company at the early stages. We heard him say, say, build out the core team, build out your scientific advisors. Probably try to do that before you're approaching professional investors. That's really smart, you know, voice of experience stuff.
[00:34:32] Speaker E: I also noted that you use the word scrappy. I think that's the first time it's ever been used on our podcast. Is discipline easy? When it comes to venture funding, it seems to me like there would always be that temptation of scaling up or spending that money that you just got.
[00:34:45] Speaker D: Yeah, I love scrappy.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: I think it's a great one and.
[00:34:48] Speaker D: A great frame for lots of people to consider. Sometimes people are in such a hurry to try to build what they perceive to be as sort of a real or professionalized company, they might leave that behind. And John is saying, nope, fight for the people you want, fight for the funding that you need. Spend carefully, all that kind of stuff. Yes, I think there's a real incentive.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: When you raise a lot of money.
[00:35:09] Speaker D: To try to move fast. And moving fast means you're probably going to make mistakes. And so what we heard from John, we've heard it from a few other folks too, is to try and run lean and be careful with those spending decisions and just push ahead as quickly as you can on whatever the core milestones are that you need to develop.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: The science and move the company.
[00:35:26] Speaker E: I know that John was talking about growing the company. Is it tough to kind of relinquish that personal touch that you had at the beginning as your company begins to grow and scale up?
[00:35:37] Speaker D: Yeah, it's a great point. I think founders, they set the tone, they build the culture, and when the team is quite small, they have really an opportunity to design the culture and, and reinforce it all the time because.
[00:35:47] Speaker B: They'Re communicating with everybody in the company.
[00:35:48] Speaker D: As companies get bigger, you just can't do that. As the company gets larger, you're still communicating with folks. I'd say it's one of the three important levers that you're pulling as a CEO that's sort of using the bully pulpit to communicate about the culture that you want, the way that you want people to interact with each other, experience each other, help each other, et cetera. But then you have to also add a set of both carrots and sticks that enable that. So you need processing in place and you need encouragement for the kind of behavior that you want to see. And you need consequences for the kind of behavior you don't want to see. I always say that you can't fix a rotten apple in the barrel by just adding more good apples. Sometimes you need to make a change or at least have a resetting conversation that tries to switch direction if somebody's.
[00:36:30] Speaker B: Not aligned with the culture you're trying to build.
[00:36:32] Speaker E: And on that note, one of the things that John mentioned was that he talked about withholding an IPO until he was ready, which is kind of a bold move in this economy. Do you think that's something that's possible to do now?
[00:36:44] Speaker D: I think it's a privilege, Adam. I think if you've been successful in your fundraising and careful in your spending, then you may be able to wait and pick your moment. Most companies don't have that luxury. It all comes back to your point about scrappy upfront. The benefit of acting in a scrappy manner, being careful with your spend, et cetera, is that hopefully you can wait and swing at the pitch that's the right one for you.
[00:37:05] Speaker E: Understood. I just had one more question. Company culture is really important for us here at Bio Rossi and obviously for John's company as well. What happened happens if you need to change that company culture when you're already moving forward in business. It sounds really dangerous.
[00:37:19] Speaker D: I think it's a high risk move. I think you have to figure out who the current culture carriers are. The CEO is usually going to be one of them, but maybe not the only one. And you need to get aligned with the other people who are influential in the organization about the culture you're trying to build. You may need to make changes to personnel and you may need to make changes to routines. We talked a little bit about know carrots and sticks that enable that. I'd also really recommend the interview that we did with the folks from Haven. I think they were really terrific on how you can make change in a culture that already exists. So really commend that to folks.
[00:37:52] Speaker E: Good point.
[00:37:52] Speaker D: All right, Adam, this was a great one. Look forward to the next.
[00:37:59] Speaker B: Thank you for listening to the latest episode of Few and Far Between Conversations from the front lines of Dream Drug Development. Our podcast is now available on Apple Podcasts and other streaming services. Please take a moment and leave us a user review and rating today. It really helps people discover the podcast and we read all the comments. Those comments help us make Few and Far between better and better. Also, be sure to subscribe to Few and Far between so you don't miss a single episode. Got an idea for a future episode? Email us at fewandfarbetweenirroci.com or contact us on our
[email protected] I'm your host, Chris. So Brian, see you next time.
